GTAStunting
General => Introduce Yourself => Topic started by: Muhammad Farrukh on August 06, 2016, 11:42:56 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bib3NkenFbU I am just 9 months old in stunting. but i tried my best
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Dont stunt with fl-off. It fucks with the handling.
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:cheersad:
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Dont stunt with fl-off.
Other grind stunts were cool tho.
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at least you stunt in vc, thats a big plus
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thanks
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Don't stunt with fl-off. It fucks with the handling.
It's a part of the game, he can use it for every stunt if he wants to. The reason we didn't/don't use it much in VC is because it makes the frame-rate uneven unlike SA unless you force vertical sync on, then the FPS will be stable at your monitors refresh rate. Most people couldn't record in 60fps so it wasn't used because it was impractical, you can work around that now and there's no reason to make up a bullshit arbitrary rule like that. If you wanna breathe new life into the game you start by not thinking in outdated ways.
And luli, just BLEUGH..
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Don't stunt with fl-off. It fucks with the handling.
It's a part of the game, he can use it for every stunt if he wants to. The reason we didn't/don't use it much in VC is because it makes the frame-rate uneven unlike SA unless you force vertical sync on, then the FPS will be stable at your monitors refresh rate. Most people couldn't record in 60fps so it wasn't used because it was impractical, you can work around that now and there's no reason to make up a bullshit arbitrary rule like that. If you wanna breathe new life into the game you start by not thinking in outdated ways.
And luli, just bang your head against something sharp a couple of times. BLEUGH..
Of course he's allowed to stunts how ever he wants to, Herb was just giving him an advice in case he wants to avoid problems caused by FL-OFF such as inconsistent physics or slowmo replays. Also i think you're just playing devil's advocate here, i'm sure you wouldn't have liked seeing spots landed with FL-OFF back when you cared about stunting in this game.
And why should luli bang his head against something sharp, he only credited this guy for stunting in VC, anything wrong with that?
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Stop being retarded, Jonas. You know damn well that FL-Off severely messes with the physics in VC.
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'Messes with' is a bullshit description, it's natural if you haven't changed any of the handling files. That's like saying every SA stunt done with FL off is 'messed up'. Just cut the crap. That attitude is the reason yall are complaining about 'stunting being dead'. And Gryz, your devils advocate point is irrelevant as stunting with FL off during the time no one could record stunts done with FL off wasn't doable. If it was practical everyone would have stunted with FL off, including me. Herb didn't say "you shouldn't stunt with FL off...->", he said "don't stunt with FL off". Pay attention.
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:|
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Thought so.
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I would say 'messes with' is an accurate description, as the physics completely break and work in a way that was not intended with FL-OFF. Sure, Rockstar included an fps unlocker so using it is "legit", but it never made sense as the game becomes almost unplayable on high fps, to the point where using FL-OFF would put you at an disadvantage in most types of stunts. Unlike in SA, where the difference between low and high fps is not as drastic, so i guess that's why it eventually became 'acceptable'.
Also i didn't get your point about recording stunts, FPS in replays is always 30 no matter what it was during the gameplay? Least that's how it works in SA, not sure about VC
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You shouldn't stunt with fl-off. It gets me fucked in a discussion.
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You shouldn't stunt with fl-off. It gets me fucked in a discussion.
Pretty sad, Max, pretty sad.
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Gryz: 'messes with' is a bullshit, nonspecific, meaningless description that does nothing to explain what it 'messes up', just like saying that it 'breaks the physics'... how, in what way does it brake it? Does it make the game crash or cause NPC-vehicles to fly? Turn Tommy into a pink dildo? It does neither, physics-wise it's very similar to the difference in SA, the main difference is folks being used to it being the status-quo norm in SA. Now reps on the other hand, they don't work the way you expect it to being used to SA. Give it a try. If you don't know the difference in how it affects reps you obviously don't know enough to appropriately claim that it breaks ANYTHING.
Pretty sad, Max, pretty sad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DksSPZTZES0
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Go play VC for 3 minutes without limiting your fps and tell me it doesn't break the physics.
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I challenge you to do the same. And if you want to have an actual conversation, you need to define what 'breaks the physics' means. Until then you're just throwing shit at a wall hoping it sticks.
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Challenge accepted.
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Look just because you think you're the end all be all authority on VC stunting, doesn't mean everyone has to automatically conform to what you think is OK and proper.
I've tried FL off in VC before. It DOES affect handling. When driving a car, ANY car, you'll roll it doing sharp turns with fl off.
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I'm just a dude with an opinion, just like you. But, unlike you I can actually form a point instead of throwing meaningless arguments you cannot even clearly define. Also I don't need to attack someone's character when I run out of shit to say. And the irony of you claiming I'm trying to get people to conform when I'm the one letting this new fella know he doesn't have to conform to YOUR expectations :lol:
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I played the game for 30 seconds and this is what happened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lteYIDg8Un8&feature=youtu.be
This is my definition of "broken physics"
also the replay system captured less than 1 second of gameplay
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This is my definition of "broken physics"
What part? Stats-wise? Wobbling back and forth a little bit when you stand on uneven ground against a wall? That can happen without FL off too, doesn't prove anything. And even if that wasn't the case, how does a static position affect a dynamic stunt? In what way whatsoever?
also the replay system captured less than 1 second of gameplay
And there's my point about how it's unpractical, in VC it stores all the extra frames as information so if you have say 300fps you get a rep that's 1/10th the length of a normal one while SA discards the ones that aren't necessary for more than 30fps. If you want it to be practical you need to force frame limiter so it sticks at 60fps and then either record at 60fps with FL off or record with 30fps during FL off and speed up the clip later.
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Its like talking to brickwall :lol: Fine you win. New guy, stunt however you want, just don't expect people to take you seriously.
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I got you 2 examples of stuff that breaks with FL-OFF in a 30 second video. I could make a 5 minute video full of stuff way worse than this, but i bet it still won't be enough and you will still say FL-OFF works perfectly fine..
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Herb: That's how it feels when you arguments are like tiny rubber bullets, they're not gonna make a dent. Sadly, you're right that some folks would dismiss his stunts... that's how the status quo works. If ya'll want to breathe some new life into the game you should organize an FL off collaboration to see more possibilities the game has to offer as most of you should have the hardware to run the game with FL and there's bound to be at least one editor who can make use of the reps.
Gryzlek: You're not answering my questions, if you want to have a different conversation you can have it with yourself.
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Which question?
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Next time try to actually read my post before you reply.
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I did read your post but i didn't see a question that i thought needed answering.
And even if that wasn't the case, how does a static position affect a dynamic stunt? In what way whatsoever?
This one?
Like i said this was just a random example video i made to show you that FL-OFF differences are huge (compared to SA) and noticeable right from the start. There are way worse things that happen with FL-OFF, like cars rolling during turns as Herb mentioned, or bikes randomly braking. Would you still not consider that 'physics breaking'?
edit: You joked about game crashing with FL-OFF but my VC turns black screen each time i pause it and try to go back. Unplayable enough? :lol:
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What part? Stats-wise? Wobbling back and forth a little bit when you stand on uneven ground against a wall? That can happen without FL off too, doesn't prove anything. And even if that wasn't the case, how does a static position affect a dynamic stunt? In what way whatsoever?
You having driver-problems is not proof of the physics being broken. Those two things are unrelated. I don't stunt with cars at all and there's no advantage in car-stunting with FL off unlike there is with bikes. Never has a bike randomly turned the brakes on for me and I've played more than you think with FL off, unlike you who didn't even know how it cuts the reps :cc_detective:
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You having driver-problems is not proof of the physics being broken. Those two things are unrelated.
Can't tell if serious.
I have a hard time believing you played with FL OFF a lot if you didn't notice how screwed braking is. (try releasing accelerate button)
This is not going anywhere as i'm obviously never gonna convince you and you're not gonna convince me so i'm just gonna sum up my thoughts on this topic.
you need to define what 'breaks the physics' means.
Cars rolling while turning, screwed braking, drastically different physics (especially noticeable with bikes), shorter replays is my definition of 'game breaking feature'. I stand by my point that it's better to use FL-ON because of the problems FL-OFF causes. Of course everyone is allowed to use whatever they want to.
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You having driver-problems is not proof of the physics being broken. Those two things are unrelated.
Can't tell if serious.
Explain how your shitty drivers affects the physics then.
I have a hard time believing you played with FL OFF a lot if you didn't notice how screwed braking is. (try releasing accelerate button)
That's a hollow statement, you have no way to know how much I've played around with FL off. Only blind people throw shots in the dark, blind people and you. I have a hard time seeing how you know anything about it when the rep-cutting was news to you.
This is not going anywhere as i'm obviously never gonna convince you and you're not gonna convince me so i'm just gonna sum up my thoughts on this topic.
When did it become about convincing anyone? I thought it was finding out what's right, not forcing your version of the truth down other peoples throat.
Cars rolling while turning, screwed braking, drastically different physics (especially noticeable with bikes), shorter replays is my definition of 'game breaking feature'. I stand by my point that it's better to use FL-ON because of the problems FL-OFF causes. Of course everyone is allowed to use whatever they want to.
I've already addressed all these points, again read my post and the cutting of the replays does in no way shape or form affect the physics in anyway, another unrelated argument. Yes it's impractical, no it doesn't change the physics.
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Explain how your shitty drivers affects the physics then.
Drivers? What are you talking about?
That's a hollow statement, you have no way to know how much I've played around with FL off. Only blind people throw shots in the dark, blind people and you. I have a hard time seeing how you know anything about it when the rep-cutting was news to you.
It was not a statement, it was an assumption based on what you said (that you didn't notice problems with braking). Rep cutting was not news to me, i knew it was a thing, i didn't know how exactly it worked.
I've already addressed all these points, again read my post and the cutting of the replays does in no way shape or form affect the physics in anyway, another unrelated argument. Yes it's impractical, no it doesn't change the physics.
I never said physics were the only problem. It's another broken thing, another reason not to use FL OFF.
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Drivers? What are you talking about?
If you don't know what graphics cards drivers are, then perhaps you should look into that.
It was not a statement, it was an assumption based on what you said (that you didn't notice problems with braking). Rep cutting was not news to me, i knew it was a thing, i didn't know how exactly it worked.
An assumption that was wrong.
I never said physics were the only problem. It's another broken thing, another reason not to use FL OFF.
And I said that can be solved by forcing vertical sync on... dude you're cherry-picking the points that you think you can argue against and conveniently 'forgetting' the information I've already posted that counters the point you're making. If you're not gonna read what I'm posting, there's no point in having a conversation. And the physics aren't broken.
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HEY GUYS! I have great news!
Check this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB_7oF17FBY)
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HAHAHAHAHA
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That's on the short-list of things I'd rather do as we're just talking in circles here anyway :happy:
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HEY GUYS! I have great news!
Check this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB_7oF17FBY)
:lol:
GJ Frankie. Now we can sleep in peace, cuz that posts were too loud.
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lol, Daffy is right, stop this bullshit
remmeber me old talkings, when i released video, and used at one stunt fl off, and video was placed to modded section :lol:
just wanted to say - mods, it shortcut from modification, so if you don't make any changes in the game, and use only what it gives, you not mod at all, deal with it
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just out of curiosity, can someone name some videos where was used FL-OFF and it was masked using speeding effects and basic edits ?
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It was some intense read, thanks guys!
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That's some funny shit right here. daffy out of all people you are least knowledgeable to state anything about games physics and anything related to the game you ruined. You couldn't even spot blantant hackers which you gave immunity to and made legit stunters quit back in the days, so how the hell can you state that you have any clue about how the game works. daily reminder that wh allowed mods and didn't do anything about it, you almost let icy in with that audition that lurks around somewhere on youtube and you didnt see anything wrong with puzzle breaking the world distance record :lol: not sure if you still have admin rights but you should be held the fuck away from it and maybe this forum still has a shot after you come clean with all the modding shit that you kept alive so people don't have any excuses anymore
shoutouts to raekwon
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That's some funny shit right here. daffy out of all people you are least knowledgeable to state anything about games physics and anything related to the game you ruined. You couldn't even spot blantant hackers which you gave immunity to and made legit stunters quit back in the days, so how the hell can you state that you have any clue about how the game works. daily reminder that wh allowed mods and didn't do anything about it, you almost let icy in with that audition that lurks around somewhere on youtube and you didnt see anything wrong with puzzle breaking the world distance record :lol: not sure if you still have admin rights but you should be held the fuck away from it and maybe this forum still has a shot after you come clean with all the modding shit that you kept alive so people don't have any excuses anymore
:lol:
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1 post and all dedicated to me huh? Gee, makes me feel all warm and special. Why don't you say who you really are and when I stepped on your toes :cc_detective:
Yawn irrelevant crybaby, yaaawn.
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sic stunting video, you kick my ass
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1 post and all dedicated to me huh? Gee, makes me feel all warm and special. Why don't you say who you really are and when I stepped on your toes :cc_detective:
Yawn irrelevant crybaby, yaaawn.
pretty sure it's streem :P
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He made some good points tho.
shouts out to ghostface
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He made some good points tho.
Do I really have to address any "points" that are so stupid? There was zero validity to any of it to the point where it's not worth acknowledging.
pretty sure it's streem :P
Yep, his IP puts him in Streems neighbourhood.
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shoutout to my boy Reynolds
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/7ERzPFCE7B0/maxresdefault.jpg)
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This topic is actually very simple. Rockstar Games based Grand Theft Auto's original 3D trilogy upon a modified version of 'RenderWare', a game engine developed by Criterion. According to this (http://www.gamedev.net/topic/280810-gta-san-andreas-3d-engine/?view=findpost&p=2762659) post by RenderWare developer 'Simagery', the game only uses the 3D graphics engine of RenderWare, but uses Rockstar's own systems for everything else, including physics. CPUs use hardware-based oscillators to calculate time, and that information is fed back to the operating system. The original trilogy used PS2 as its lead platform, targeting a 33.3ms frame-time (30fps). Under these circumstances, Rockstar knew that the maximum frame rate was 30fps, and they knew that the game shouldn't drop too far below this value. As a result, most of the game logic and physics was set to operate at a fixed time step of 33.3ms. However, major aspects of the game logic and the physics were calculated using a variable time step, meaning that the game could adapt to variances in frame rate. This was mostly fine for RenderWare's graphics engine, but many aspects of the handling and physics were calculated more quickly as frame rates increased, resulting in issues like different friction, braking forces, rotation speeds, and more.
The difference with GTA San Andreas is that the game had an additional 14ms delay between frames on PC, which limited the frame rate to 25fps. This additional frame delay persisted when Vsync was disabled, and prevented the game from rendering unlimited framerates with Vsync disabled (FL-OFF). The problem is that this frame delay was core to the physics of San Andreas, because the game also needed more time to complete physics calculations. When you use modifications like SilentPatch - which remove this frame delay to restore the Vsync lock of 30fps, and allow frame rates up to an artificial cap of 1000fps - physics calculations happen more quickly at any given frame rate, and this results in the types of physics glitches you see when playing with these mods enabled, or playing MTA/SAMP, which both remove this delay themselves (albeit with different FPS limits).
Outside of frame-times, the only difference with San Andreas is that the replay system captures data at a fixed rate of 40ms (25fps), whereas Vice City captures data every time a new frame is rendered. San Andreas drops frames so that it can always capture the same amount of data per second, and make sure replays playback identically regardless of frame rate. Vice City suffered from variable frame rates within replays, so when you played them back at 30fps, they would play back more slowly/quickly depending on how much data had to be played back per second. Frame drops would result in faster playback, since it would take less frames to move the same amount of distance, and high frame rates would result in slower playback, because it would take more frames to move the same amount of distance. This also resulted in drastically shorter replay lengths, because more data had to be fit into a limited amount of 'blocks' stored in RAM. As Daffy mentioned, people could have instigated their own 60fps cap to allow for high FPS videos with consistent replay playback, but frankly, nobody did this because there was no demand for it, so the point is essentially moot. Of course, that doesn't stop anyone doing it now; it might be cool to see a video made with a 60fps cap, and past precedent is not a good reason to shy away. I don't think it's a good idea to change the standards now though, because they're not broken.
This highlights the central issues people have with FL-OFF in Vice City. Frame rates are uncapped, so physics calculations are far faster than San Andreas, and Vice City's replay system doesn't drop frames at higher frame rates, so replays invariably look different on different systems, and the length of replays isn't good enough. However, what people consistently fail to realise is that almost exactly the same things happen when you use FL-OFF in San Andreas, barring Vice City's replay system issues. Why don't people understand this? The differences simply aren't as obvious, because San Andreas has an additional 14ms of delay in physics calculations, and frame rates are locked at ~71fps without modifications (the frame-times aren't 100% accurate, so you may find small deviations). - Most people seem to run mods that cause the game to max out around ~142fps instead (7ms), but I'm not sure which modifications specifically cause this; perhaps it's to do with No-CD patches, or Windows, or AMD/Nvidia's drivers? Would require more testing than I have time for. - SilentPatch is perhaps the greatest demonstration we have of this, for it shows how San Andreas' handling and physics operate under similar conditions to Vice City's runtime. That is why people vehemently stick to 30fps in Vice City, and why using SilentPatch is considered modding in San Andreas. Now as for why people use FL-OFF in San Andreas... different people come to different conclusions, and the negative effects of San Andreas' unlocked frame rates were not as apparent when the game was released, especially since computer hardware was far less powerful in 2005, so many people didn't even realise there were any differences until they discovered the RAD method, by which time they were already used to FL-OFF.
Should anything be obvious, it is that FL-OFF in Vice City is not "modding", it is simply looked down upon, because those who use it have a significant advantage over the stunting community as a whole, who have all stuck to FL-ON. San Andreas stunters may well have done the same, had they understood the consequences of FL-OFF from the start. If you want to stunt in the same conditions as Vice City stunters, you should stick to FL-ON, and for San Andreas, you should usually stick to FL-OFF, outside of circumstances where FL-ON is beneficial. As for what remains unknown, we don't have access to the source code, where we could definitively see how each individual function is calculated. Without that, all we can do is research the effects of FL-OFF within the game itself. As a community, we have a pretty good understanding of what that means, but in order to document the exact differences, that would require tangible efforts on the part of those whom it concerns. I don't see that happening right now, all I see is the playground attitude that pervaded the stunting community long ago.
Disclaimer: I'm not a programmer, I just did some research about this back in the day. I might be wrong about some things regarding fixed/variable time steps, for I'm working with other people's documentation, and I have never done any programming, so I can't practically test my findings. If you want more detail about fixed/variable time steps, and their relation to game logic or physics, ask somebody else.
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Vanilla, Everytime you post or stunt I get wet :ninja:
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Vanilla, Everytime you post or stunt I get wet :ninja:
(http://a5.files.foodess.com/image/upload/c_fit,cs_srgb,dpr_1.0,q_80,w_620/MTMyOTM2NzM2MDE4ODUzODU4.jpg) (http://foodess.com/recipes/moist-vanilla-cake/)
The title of the page was "Moist Vanilla Cake", I deemed it appropriate :wub:.
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(http://66.media.tumblr.com/f7a0849fe4e935ed4f69994ee0d60262/tumblr_mig0jrjJ6C1s6pyhzo1_500.png)
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SS making panties wet since 2005
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I have a really weak pc so that means im not allowed to stunt in VC?
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I have a really weak pc so that means im not allowed to stunt in VC?
I'm curious as to how you came to this conclusion
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I have a really weak pc so that means im not allowed to stunt in VC?
I'm curious as to how you came to this conclusion
(https://i.gyazo.com/a2ec3e4b3c27d7bc975d476bb6b0bf23.png)
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Should anything be obvious, it is that FL-OFF in Vice City is not "modding", it is simply looked down upon, because those who use it have a significant advantage over the stunting community as a whole, who have all stuck to FL-ON.
That's the problem with the community, no FPS community looks down on gamers who have better hardware and have a higher FPS because of it :cc_detective:
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Should anything be obvious, it is that FL-OFF in Vice City is not "modding", it is simply looked down upon, because those who use it have a significant advantage over the stunting community as a whole, who have all stuck to FL-ON.
That's the problem with the community, no FPS community looks down on gamers who have better hardware and have a higher FPS because of it :cc_detective:
Maybe they don't look down upon it casually but most if not all professional level FPS tournaments will use the exact same systems as to not give one player/team an advantage over another :P
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We're not at an FPS tournament in front of thousands of people competing for cash prices, we're sitting at home like 99% of all gamers.
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Indeed, but there should still be some sort of rules/regulations for our niche hobby. Personally I don't really care if someone uses FL on or off and I always thought Delirium/Demonfade's stunts with FL off looked cool but it doesn't really make sense to start using FL off 13 years later but hey if people wanna do it then fuck it it's just tapping 6/9 repetitively so who cares whether its 30 or 60FPS :P
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That's the problem with the community, no FPS community looks down on gamers who have better hardware and have a higher FPS because of it :cc_detective:
Much of the fun, in my opinion, is breaking down similar barriers. Skateboarding can be really fun with friends, but in a competitive environment (much like many stunting videos), it would suck if someone could fly up off a halfpipe, do a ton of rotations, and win the whole tournament, all because they had higher frames per second (an equivalent discussion in real-world competitive sports is the use of drugs). That's why people take issue with modding, and although FL off isn't modding, people understandably don't like it when the barrier they've been breaking for over a decade gets destroyed by a metaphorical steamroller. You might not stunt competitively now, but you certainly have in the past, and many people do to this day; having fun does not contradict a competitive spirit.
The difference with Counter Strike and similar competitive shooters is that high FPS was a priority from the very beginning, and has never made drastic changes to the game logic. For the most part, people used high FPS to saturate CRT refresh rates, and they do the same to this day on more powerful LCD monitors (even though there are similarly muddy understandings of the effects of FPS on game logic in the Counter Strike community). In fact, people forcibly limit competitive game servers to a standard 128 tick rate, precisely because tick rate can affect more than just latency, particularly bunnyhopping and grenade physics.
The real question you should ask is why high FPS wasn't a priority from the start, especially in Vice City. It wasn't just about hardware limitations, that much is sure. People could try it now, but in order for them to be anything but outliers, the community would need to try it en mass, and I just don't see the demand for it in an ageing VC/SA community. Still, it would be cool to see some videos in it, so if you believe in locking to 60fps for VC, by all means! As long as it's transparent, I don't think anyone minds :D.
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That's the problem with the community, no FPS community looks down on gamers who have better hardware and have a higher FPS because of it :cc_detective:
Much of the fun, in my opinion, is breaking down similar barriers. Skateboarding can be really fun with friends, but in a competitive environment (much like many stunting videos), it would suck if someone could fly up off a halfpipe, do a ton of rotations, and win the whole tournament, all because they had higher frames per second (an equivalent discussion in real-world competitive sports is the use of drugs). That's why people take issue with modding, and although FL off isn't modding, people understandably don't like it when the barrier they've been breaking for over a decade gets destroyed by a metaphorical steamroller. You might not stunt competitively now, but you certainly have in the past, and many people do to this day; having fun does not contradict a competitive spirit.
The difference with Counter Strike and similar competitive shooters is that high FPS was a priority from the very beginning, and has never made drastic changes to the game logic. For the most part, people used high FPS to saturate CRT refresh rates, and they do the same to this day on more powerful LCD monitors (even though their are similarly muddy understandings of the effects of FPS on game logic in the Counter Strike community). In fact, people forcibly limit competitive game servers to a standard 128 tick rate, precisely because tick rate can affect more than just latency, particularly bunnyhopping and grenade physics.
The real question you should ask is why high FPS wasn't a priority from the start, especially in Vice City. It wasn't just about hardware limitations, that much is sure. People could try it now, but in order for them to be anything but outliers, the community would need to try it en mass, and I just don't see the demand for it in an ageing VC/SA community. Still, it would be cool to see some videos in it, so if you believe in locking to 60fps for VC, by all means! As long as it's transparent, I don't think anyone minds :D.
There's always something that will be looked down upon in every game. This is because there are, as you say, these barriers. For example autosnipers in cs:go, playing teemo in ranked (or anything out of the meta for that sake), using overpowered Pokemons in duels(most of the op's are banned in competitive play) etc.
But by all means, do what you like to do bro and if you enjoy it, do it :ajaja: :ajaja:
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That's the problem with the community, no FPS community looks down on gamers who have better hardware and have a higher FPS because of it :cc_detective:
Much of the fun, in my opinion, is breaking down similar barriers. Skateboarding can be really fun with friends, but in a competitive environment (much like many stunting videos), it would suck if someone could fly up off a halfpipe, do a ton of rotations, and win the whole tournament, all because they had higher frames per second (an equivalent discussion in real-world competitive sports is the use of drugs). That's why people take issue with modding, and although FL off isn't modding, people understandably don't like it when the barrier they've been breaking for over a decade gets destroyed by a metaphorical steamroller. You might not stunt competitively now, but you certainly have in the past, and many people do to this day; having fun does not contradict a competitive spirit.
Fun fact: Jeff Phillips beat Tony Hawk, Mike McGill, Steve Caballero and Lance Mountain without doing a McTwist whilst tripping on acid in 1986.
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be like me, i never use mods.
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be like me, i never use mods.
u are so cooool
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be like me, i never use mods.
The Sample. :happy: